Interview 7
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A: So when I was growing up we had a next door neighbour who was probably like my grandma and she would often come to do her grocery shopping and I’d accompany here just to help her with her shopping bags on the way back and would probably come to or my memories of it as a child were a place where you buy groceries, Asian groceries, you can buy coriander, and chillies, which you wouldn’t get in Tesco’s, and meat, and a few clothes shops but not as many. It wasn’t a place where we would come to eat. But now its somewhere I would consider as to buy Asian clothes, predominantly I would say I come here for eating and maybe some food, grocery shopping. But as a child I remember we hardly would go to the big supermarkets it would be that you’d buy your Asian groceries from here and other things like milk and bread and eggs. I don’t know it was just mind set this is where you get your ‘ghurane’ shopping.
Q: Yes. So it’s almost like two sets of shopping from Tesco’s in another part of Birmingham and do your Asian shopping here. And you said you’d now come here to eat but were they’re any restaurants around at the time when you to come?
A: There were restaurants, however, I think they…we would consider them as restaurants not for Asians to eat because they were milder in flavour and they weren’t as authentic as what we would have at home, they were more for non-Asians who would come out for dinner. However, now it’s more about burgers, and having your naans, kebabs, and rassomallais. And if you do go somewhere here to have food you will struggle to find anybody in there who’s not Asian. So I think that’s been a considerable change. I haven’t noticed until now since I’ve been thinking about it, it’s a subconscious thing; this is just an Asian area.
Q: So definitely more Asians are getting out more and being a part of the scene more rather than I suppose just doing their shopping seeing it as or would you say as more an event coming out here?
A: Absolutely. I think that people are now coming out in larger, coming out with their extended families it’s not just your immediate family that you come out with for dinner, you know, you have large tables in the restaurants you’ll find that they’re just big large families that’s out to eat dinner. And this didn’t happen when I was growing up. They’re weren’t these type of places available. It wasn’t as accessible as it is now. We’ve got choice. And for Asians they want to take out their children and let them scream and run around the place whilst they and everybody gets something to eat. And it wasn’t like that when we were growing up.
Q: And you’ve since obviously moved away you’re now based in another country and if I may use the name of the country that you’re based in now, it ok to mention?
A: Yes.
Q: So now you’re in Australia. How does it compare to UK or to a place like Ladypool road, is there anything like Ladypool road where you are?
A: In Melbourne we seek out a place of the same callibre but we have never come across anything, which is equivalent. We do miss it. It’s lovely to have that within a western country and just know that it’s accessible, it’s easy, it’s there.
Q: You were telling me something about why you think perhaps there are streets like this set up in Birmingham and perhaps not in a place like Australia. You were telling me something about how migration may have something to do with it?
A: It’s my own opinion, it’s nothing, not statistically based or anything but I believe that the migration process for the UK in the ‘60s and ‘50s it wasn’t as restrictive as the Australian immigration system where you have to enter with some qualifications or skills in certain areas so find that the people that are migrants in Australia their input towards the economy is more professional based. Whereas I think in the UK the migration system allowed for all sorts of people to come through and they didn’t have to have qualifications but just a valid reason as to why they wanted to come to the UK. And for that purpose I think that people have wanted to become independent business people and this is what they thought was the demand here which was you know, Asian clothes or food, or groceries, so I think there’s a large difference because of the migration process there’s a difference in that’s why we don’t get streets like this in Australia.
Q: Right. Interesting. So how about coming back to when you were growing up, how as a woman have you befitted from your mum being a role model if I may use that term…how has she impacted your own upbringing knowing that perhaps women of the south Asian community are not as dominant as they can be in the business world like on Ladypool road?
A: So my mum has always, or when I was a child she was always at home until I got to secondary school where she decided, she’d come from a business background - her parents had businesses when she was growing up -and she wanted to use her skills, when we in secondary school to establish her own business. She established businesses and was always the foundation and the backbone of the business but I never gave her the credit for it. I thought it was my dad who had established the business because my mum would still complete all her duties fulfill all her duties as a mother, as a wife, and you know she could not sway from those responsibilities that she had. So growing up I did not give her the respect of a businesswoman, I gave my dad the respect of the businessman because I thought the male is the breadwinner and the female is the homemaker. Because of that, I’m struggling. I spread myself very thinly like my mum did when growing up. I have a degree but I don’t have a career because I’ve decided to be the homemaker while my husband goes out and you know, fulfills his career as such as well as being the breadwinner and I give him the respect. And I feel as if society hasn’t changed much where a man has to feel that if he’s not putting the bread on the table and a roof over your head it makes him feel inferior. And they can’t be made to feel that way. So I think this is still generally the case with society and that is probably I feel like that because if the way my mum brought me up which she didn’t fulfill her passion and her dreams until much later on because she thought that her husband deserves the credit.
Q: How has your respect grown for your mum?
A: It’s grown most probably since I’ve become a mother.
Q: Interesting.
A: I’ve appreciated that she was doing so many things at the same time as being a businesswoman because I can’t do it now. I’m trying to focus on my children but I’m trying to break the cycle because I think she spread herself very thinly, giving her the respect what I think the she should have had all along. But because I can’t spread myself too thinly as she did, I’m trying to focus on one area and that’s just bringing up children. I think she did try and do everything and because of that her business suffered, her career suffered, and her passion and her dreams were put on the back burner. I don’t want the same for myself and I think to myself I’ve got two daughters and I don’t want the same for them either. I’ve got to let them fulfill their dreams before. This year I decided I’ve got to be a bit more selfish because my mum is not selfish and that’s what I’ve learned from her and her trying to be a businesswoman.
Q: You mentioned an episode when she was running a restaurant and what were the kind or remarks or what was the feeling of the society at the time when she was working?
A: So I believe there’s always been a stigma attached to a working woman either she works and neglects her family and can’t do both. If she is working she has to be something, which isn’t done during the day. We had a restaurant which obviously meant late hours. The stigma here was -how can a lady, a woman, be out at midnight, working? and if she is, then that’s something that should not be respected. It was disrespected. So you know, a man would be treated totally differently.
Q: What about your father, if he heard perhaps his wife is being criticized for working hard who does have to return home late, I mean how did he take that?
A: He wasn’t very supportive. You know I don’t think he helped the situation. He didn’t give her the credit she deserved as well.
Q: Despite her sharing a hand in the business?
A: No because he wanted all the credit. He didn’t want to and couldn’t share the fact that they were earning an income together and it was fifty-fifty. He had to feel that he was the sole earner and he had to have all the credit. If she was there and you know, helped him that was OK, it was also part of her duty because she was gaining other things from it. Financially they were better off than their friends so you know she had to pay a price for that but other than that it wasn’t something that he was supportive of and give her the respect. And if he’s not giving her the respect to her and there’s other people outside disrespecting what she’s doing as well she’s not going to feel too great about her self.
Q: Of course it starts from the home.
Q: So what about the setting up of her business later on in life – you have quite large part to play in that, how did you go about encouraging her or how did the idea begin?
A: She’s always had a passion for setting up her own business.
She wanted a boutique which represented her style and her culture, her history because she would look at pictures of her grandparents, her mother and she wanted to bring that to the UK because she thought that there was Asian clothes available but they weren’t reflective of our culture of our heritage. She wanted to bring that into Birmingham.
Q: So what do you think were the kind boutiques at that time, what were they selling to customers ?
A: I think it started out of need because people couldn’t go to Pakistan and India and buy clothes for everyday wear and somebody must have realized there’s a gap in the market. And so there were more so clothes that were over priced for what they were. The quality wasn’t there. There was a blur between Indian and Pakistani clothes. My mother’s from Karachi and her grandparents were from India and they were very much traditional.
Q: How was you support towards for her dream to be fulfilled?
A: My support for her was always, not financial, but more so always just encouragement and confidence. I’ve also helped with the background things like the name of her shop, and ideas on marketing, and layout as well but other than that the stock is what her passion is and that’s what her interest is and that’s where her strength is I should say. The other parts, the other elements of her business she’s not so great at but I try to fill the gap there for her. But that’s all it is. I’m not here physically to be able to contribute as much as I’d like to if I was, I’d be here with her standing side by side in the shop and probably give her a couple of days off and something like that and travelling back and forth to Pakistan to get the stock.
Q: You mentioned earlier something about designing, printing, and getting the art work created for promoting the business and how was that in terms of engaging with the graphics and the printers who are predominantly Asian background and male?
A: We tried to contract graphic designers that weren’t Asian to begin with because we wanted to have a fresh approach with our ideas. We had ideas and didn’t want them to be, go to a graphic designer who’s already conditioned to a certain way of designing for Asians, we wanted something different. But we found that we came up with difficulties because we needed somebody who understands the culture to come with our designs. So then we would go to Asian graphic designers who prefer to deal with males and you know sometimes they’ll have their own input because they think that’s the right one, but we’ve got our own idea and they’re not happy to or they don’t want to listen to it or they don’t, well they just ignore you because you’re a woman. But if we send our Dad to do it then it’s a whole different affair. They accept his ideas, take on board what he’s saying much easier than they do when we want to speak to them. And their offices are not in areas or in a state where it’s comfortable to sit because they’re not used to dealing with women. They deal with men.
Q: So in terms of the business now is your mum kind of respected for her business here on lady pool road? What are the attitudes of this area do you think?
A: I think the attitude unfortunately hasn’t evolved that much. I think it’s male dominated when it comes to business owners and if there are any women that work here, especially like for my mum we’ve noticed that she comes up with small problems, you know they’re not major, it is to do with the fact that she is a woman there. A man is treated differently, and you know, simple things like just parking or just being a little bit more neighbourly, it’s a very much an attitude of the bigger you are, the stronger you are the more you get from here.
Q: I think we’ve come across many, in comparison, let’s twenty- thirty years ago there are more women running shops. I wonder is it a safety factor does your mum feel safe or would you feel safe?
A: My mum doesn’t feel safe as such. She feels she doesn’t like being herself by herself. She always feels like she needs somebody with her.
Q: What kind of changes would you like to see?
A: I think it’s important to educate from an early stage, maybe from school.
Q: What kind of education do you think?
A: To encourage women, to encourage girls that they can do what they want to and they will be respected for it. And it also has to stem from the home as well. Because if they don’t feel respected at home, they are not going to believe that they will get any respect when they’re out. Home is where you should feel most confident and secure and respected, and if you’re not getting that from home then you’re not going to or think that the rest of the world is going to be worse than that. So, um it’s something that awareness needs to be made for it from maybe, I don’t know how to do that but from the home and schools.
Q: So A thank you very much for the interview
A: It was a pleasure.
A: There were restaurants, however, I think they…we would consider them as restaurants not for Asians to eat because they were milder in flavour and they weren’t as authentic as what we would have at home, they were more for non-Asians who would come out for dinner. However, now it’s more about burgers, and having your naans, kebabs, and rassomallais. And if you do go somewhere here to have food you will struggle to find anybody in there who’s not Asian. So I think that’s been a considerable change. I haven’t noticed until now since I’ve been thinking about it, it’s a subconscious thing; this is just an Asian area.
Q: So definitely more Asians are getting out more and being a part of the scene more rather than I suppose just doing their shopping seeing it as or would you say as more an event coming out here?
A: Absolutely. I think that people are now coming out in larger, coming out with their extended families it’s not just your immediate family that you come out with for dinner, you know, you have large tables in the restaurants you’ll find that they’re just big large families that’s out to eat dinner. And this didn’t happen when I was growing up. They’re weren’t these type of places available. It wasn’t as accessible as it is now. We’ve got choice. And for Asians they want to take out their children and let them scream and run around the place whilst they and everybody gets something to eat. And it wasn’t like that when we were growing up.
Q: And you’ve since obviously moved away you’re now based in another country and if I may use the name of the country that you’re based in now, it ok to mention?
A: Yes.
Q: So now you’re in Australia. How does it compare to UK or to a place like Ladypool road, is there anything like Ladypool road where you are?
A: In Melbourne we seek out a place of the same callibre but we have never come across anything, which is equivalent. We do miss it. It’s lovely to have that within a western country and just know that it’s accessible, it’s easy, it’s there.
Q: You were telling me something about why you think perhaps there are streets like this set up in Birmingham and perhaps not in a place like Australia. You were telling me something about how migration may have something to do with it?
A: It’s my own opinion, it’s nothing, not statistically based or anything but I believe that the migration process for the UK in the ‘60s and ‘50s it wasn’t as restrictive as the Australian immigration system where you have to enter with some qualifications or skills in certain areas so find that the people that are migrants in Australia their input towards the economy is more professional based. Whereas I think in the UK the migration system allowed for all sorts of people to come through and they didn’t have to have qualifications but just a valid reason as to why they wanted to come to the UK. And for that purpose I think that people have wanted to become independent business people and this is what they thought was the demand here which was you know, Asian clothes or food, or groceries, so I think there’s a large difference because of the migration process there’s a difference in that’s why we don’t get streets like this in Australia.
Q: Right. Interesting. So how about coming back to when you were growing up, how as a woman have you befitted from your mum being a role model if I may use that term…how has she impacted your own upbringing knowing that perhaps women of the south Asian community are not as dominant as they can be in the business world like on Ladypool road?
A: So my mum has always, or when I was a child she was always at home until I got to secondary school where she decided, she’d come from a business background - her parents had businesses when she was growing up -and she wanted to use her skills, when we in secondary school to establish her own business. She established businesses and was always the foundation and the backbone of the business but I never gave her the credit for it. I thought it was my dad who had established the business because my mum would still complete all her duties fulfill all her duties as a mother, as a wife, and you know she could not sway from those responsibilities that she had. So growing up I did not give her the respect of a businesswoman, I gave my dad the respect of the businessman because I thought the male is the breadwinner and the female is the homemaker. Because of that, I’m struggling. I spread myself very thinly like my mum did when growing up. I have a degree but I don’t have a career because I’ve decided to be the homemaker while my husband goes out and you know, fulfills his career as such as well as being the breadwinner and I give him the respect. And I feel as if society hasn’t changed much where a man has to feel that if he’s not putting the bread on the table and a roof over your head it makes him feel inferior. And they can’t be made to feel that way. So I think this is still generally the case with society and that is probably I feel like that because if the way my mum brought me up which she didn’t fulfill her passion and her dreams until much later on because she thought that her husband deserves the credit.
Q: How has your respect grown for your mum?
A: It’s grown most probably since I’ve become a mother.
Q: Interesting.
A: I’ve appreciated that she was doing so many things at the same time as being a businesswoman because I can’t do it now. I’m trying to focus on my children but I’m trying to break the cycle because I think she spread herself very thinly, giving her the respect what I think the she should have had all along. But because I can’t spread myself too thinly as she did, I’m trying to focus on one area and that’s just bringing up children. I think she did try and do everything and because of that her business suffered, her career suffered, and her passion and her dreams were put on the back burner. I don’t want the same for myself and I think to myself I’ve got two daughters and I don’t want the same for them either. I’ve got to let them fulfill their dreams before. This year I decided I’ve got to be a bit more selfish because my mum is not selfish and that’s what I’ve learned from her and her trying to be a businesswoman.
Q: You mentioned an episode when she was running a restaurant and what were the kind or remarks or what was the feeling of the society at the time when she was working?
A: So I believe there’s always been a stigma attached to a working woman either she works and neglects her family and can’t do both. If she is working she has to be something, which isn’t done during the day. We had a restaurant which obviously meant late hours. The stigma here was -how can a lady, a woman, be out at midnight, working? and if she is, then that’s something that should not be respected. It was disrespected. So you know, a man would be treated totally differently.
Q: What about your father, if he heard perhaps his wife is being criticized for working hard who does have to return home late, I mean how did he take that?
A: He wasn’t very supportive. You know I don’t think he helped the situation. He didn’t give her the credit she deserved as well.
Q: Despite her sharing a hand in the business?
A: No because he wanted all the credit. He didn’t want to and couldn’t share the fact that they were earning an income together and it was fifty-fifty. He had to feel that he was the sole earner and he had to have all the credit. If she was there and you know, helped him that was OK, it was also part of her duty because she was gaining other things from it. Financially they were better off than their friends so you know she had to pay a price for that but other than that it wasn’t something that he was supportive of and give her the respect. And if he’s not giving her the respect to her and there’s other people outside disrespecting what she’s doing as well she’s not going to feel too great about her self.
Q: Of course it starts from the home.
Q: So what about the setting up of her business later on in life – you have quite large part to play in that, how did you go about encouraging her or how did the idea begin?
A: She’s always had a passion for setting up her own business.
She wanted a boutique which represented her style and her culture, her history because she would look at pictures of her grandparents, her mother and she wanted to bring that to the UK because she thought that there was Asian clothes available but they weren’t reflective of our culture of our heritage. She wanted to bring that into Birmingham.
Q: So what do you think were the kind boutiques at that time, what were they selling to customers ?
A: I think it started out of need because people couldn’t go to Pakistan and India and buy clothes for everyday wear and somebody must have realized there’s a gap in the market. And so there were more so clothes that were over priced for what they were. The quality wasn’t there. There was a blur between Indian and Pakistani clothes. My mother’s from Karachi and her grandparents were from India and they were very much traditional.
Q: How was you support towards for her dream to be fulfilled?
A: My support for her was always, not financial, but more so always just encouragement and confidence. I’ve also helped with the background things like the name of her shop, and ideas on marketing, and layout as well but other than that the stock is what her passion is and that’s what her interest is and that’s where her strength is I should say. The other parts, the other elements of her business she’s not so great at but I try to fill the gap there for her. But that’s all it is. I’m not here physically to be able to contribute as much as I’d like to if I was, I’d be here with her standing side by side in the shop and probably give her a couple of days off and something like that and travelling back and forth to Pakistan to get the stock.
Q: You mentioned earlier something about designing, printing, and getting the art work created for promoting the business and how was that in terms of engaging with the graphics and the printers who are predominantly Asian background and male?
A: We tried to contract graphic designers that weren’t Asian to begin with because we wanted to have a fresh approach with our ideas. We had ideas and didn’t want them to be, go to a graphic designer who’s already conditioned to a certain way of designing for Asians, we wanted something different. But we found that we came up with difficulties because we needed somebody who understands the culture to come with our designs. So then we would go to Asian graphic designers who prefer to deal with males and you know sometimes they’ll have their own input because they think that’s the right one, but we’ve got our own idea and they’re not happy to or they don’t want to listen to it or they don’t, well they just ignore you because you’re a woman. But if we send our Dad to do it then it’s a whole different affair. They accept his ideas, take on board what he’s saying much easier than they do when we want to speak to them. And their offices are not in areas or in a state where it’s comfortable to sit because they’re not used to dealing with women. They deal with men.
Q: So in terms of the business now is your mum kind of respected for her business here on lady pool road? What are the attitudes of this area do you think?
A: I think the attitude unfortunately hasn’t evolved that much. I think it’s male dominated when it comes to business owners and if there are any women that work here, especially like for my mum we’ve noticed that she comes up with small problems, you know they’re not major, it is to do with the fact that she is a woman there. A man is treated differently, and you know, simple things like just parking or just being a little bit more neighbourly, it’s a very much an attitude of the bigger you are, the stronger you are the more you get from here.
Q: I think we’ve come across many, in comparison, let’s twenty- thirty years ago there are more women running shops. I wonder is it a safety factor does your mum feel safe or would you feel safe?
A: My mum doesn’t feel safe as such. She feels she doesn’t like being herself by herself. She always feels like she needs somebody with her.
Q: What kind of changes would you like to see?
A: I think it’s important to educate from an early stage, maybe from school.
Q: What kind of education do you think?
A: To encourage women, to encourage girls that they can do what they want to and they will be respected for it. And it also has to stem from the home as well. Because if they don’t feel respected at home, they are not going to believe that they will get any respect when they’re out. Home is where you should feel most confident and secure and respected, and if you’re not getting that from home then you’re not going to or think that the rest of the world is going to be worse than that. So, um it’s something that awareness needs to be made for it from maybe, I don’t know how to do that but from the home and schools.
Q: So A thank you very much for the interview
A: It was a pleasure.
Sonia Sabri Company, 202 Moseley Street, Birmingham B12 0RT UK